Councillors speak out over Caffe Nero's new seating area

3:20pm Friday 3rd August 2012 in Chippenham By Alex Winter

Chippenham town councillors spoke out against Caffe Nero’s outside seating area at last night (Thursday’s) planning and environment committee.


The coffee shop, which opened in Borough Parade two weeks ago despite not having yet applied for planning permission, has attracted criticism from independent traders and the president of the Wessex Chamber of Commerce, Rob Perks.


Coun John Scragg, who chaired the meeting, said: “It does show some disrespect for the laws and rules [that the cafe has opened without planning permission].


“I am concerned about the extent to which tables and chairs have extended beyond the cafe itself. Many are now in the central plaza in Borough Parade. I think we should consider writing to the management about this.”


Coun Nina Phillips said she had already complained to the management about the issue.


“Because it was just me complaining alone, it didn’t go anywhere, but I think we certainly ought to send a letter,” she said.


However, Coun David Powell said he was unwilling to take action against the chain.


“When planning permission has been denied, they have appealed 17 times and won all but one of those,” he said.


“If we take the decision to fight against it, it will be at the tax payers’ expense.”

Comments(41)

redrum says...
3:54pm Fri 3 Aug 12

This is exactly what coffee one did in Warminster, so basically what message the councils are giving is that it is ok for companies not to abide by the regulations and they will not be punished. Far out.

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Hardens says...
3:56pm Fri 3 Aug 12

Hang on, am I reading this correctly? They are flouting the rules by which all of us should be living by and the council are unwilling to take action because Caffe Nero always win their appeals...?
If this is the case then as a local tax payer I urge the council to make sure they have covered everything and take the appropriate action. If they appeal and cause our taxes to be expended then I urge the G&H to publicise that so we as residents can express our disappointment in more direct ways i.e. not visiting the Caffe Nero, after all there's plenty of choice! It's bad enough the banks are riding roughshod over us without this...

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Hardens says...
4:11pm Fri 3 Aug 12

I just looked at the Caffe Nero website to find this gem...
"When we started Caffè Nero, our intention was to cultivate our family feel and grow a business rich with integrity. Now with over 450 stores in the UK alone we continue to take our responsibility to develop a fair and ethical company seriously. We think responsibly for our business and everything we do - how it impacts our local communities, our suppliers, our staff and the environment."
In that case our council shouldn't be afraid to ask Caffe Nero to abide by the rules should they?

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Granti says...
4:47pm Fri 3 Aug 12

time to make it Two wins then!
Grow a set and make them toe the line, thats what you are there for!

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rrosco says...
6:02pm Fri 3 Aug 12

I did see them myself sticking chairs in the middle of the Plaza,and wondered who had authorised them to do that - seemingly they shouldn't even be open at all!

I fail to see why we should let them get away with this: as a Chippenham resident and tax payer, I am definitely happy for my money to be used to challenge this.

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Marrytime says...
6:05pm Fri 3 Aug 12

What a heap of rubbish the planning laws must be - they may as well be scrapped.

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Nickthegreek says...
9:53pm Fri 3 Aug 12

So the Councillors sat around, had a chat and DECIDED to consider sending a letter to the management. Hmmm, great, decisive leadership! Just what your voters elected you for......zzzzz

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Yer Tis says...
1:14am Sat 4 Aug 12

Might one be bold enough to suggest that if the council are not going to take action against them, then whenever and whoever choices to do what the want against planning laws in Chippenham . this council will have set a precedent to allow this.

I beleive this may be deemed to be gross negligence in a public office!

And if the still choice to allow Nero to break the law, then I think is tie those councillors step down and allow others to take their place, who will fight to ensure threat the law is upheld.

Austerity is NOT an excuse to allow the law to be ignored!

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underdogs says...
12:48pm Sat 4 Aug 12

A new business providing jobs in our town, a service to local shoppers, filling one of the many empty shops, paying their rent to the landlord - paying our council business rates . Is the pathway so narrow you cannot get past a few chairs ? - ask the manager to move it. After all any new business in town needs our help and support - or would you rather have more empty shops ? Should we encourage our council to waste taxpayers money on legal fees and enforcement notices etc - or help a new business to develop? Others commenting mention cafe Nero breaking the Law - all it will take is a retrospective planning application. Does Wiltshire Council and its staff sometimes break the LAW ?

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Loslane14 says...
2:04pm Sat 4 Aug 12

I fail to see why this is such a big issue, a shop filled and jobs. I thought how lovely it was to see people sat in the centre of the parade drinking a cup of coffee in the rare moment of sunshine. It hasn't changed my life in anyway or prevented me from accessing any other shops on the parade, so for goodness sake stop moaning.

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Ian Bertram says...
4:10pm Sat 4 Aug 12

The reason they win their appeals is because there is almost always no planning case to be made against them. If a council refuses planning permission and has no reason that stands up to examination that wastes time and costs money - our money.

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mjhudston says...
7:03pm Sat 4 Aug 12

Loslane14 wrote:
I fail to see why this is such a big issue, a shop filled and jobs. I thought how lovely it was to see people sat in the centre of the parade drinking a cup of coffee in the rare moment of sunshine. It hasn't changed my life in anyway or prevented me from accessing any other shops on the parade, so for goodness sake stop moaning.
Yes at the demise of another town centre coffee shop (cafe central)! So no overall gain. But even if there was, the law is the law, there should be no excuse to break it!

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underdogs says...
8:13pm Sat 4 Aug 12

In 2012 people have the right to choose the coffee shop they use, and go to the place of their choice that offers the most suitable facilities along with the best coffee etc. HOPEFULLY, gone are the days of the old 'establishment' looking after their own under the old pals act, and obviously the coffee shops that Chippenham people most enjoy and use will survive ! In an ideal world mjhudston, in an ideal world but we regularly see now where even MPs, Councillors, Police, etc etc break the Law with far more serious consequences for society in general, in my view a coffee shop is the least of our worries these days !

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Hardens says...
2:58am Sun 5 Aug 12

It's nothing to do with jobs, coffee or freedom of choice, it's to do with a council not enforcing the laws against this company when if a home-owner proceeded to build an extension without planning permission in their own back garden for instance there would be a case to answer. Just because others get away with breaking the law we should not turn a blind eye to this.

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chips-in-ham says...
5:39pm Sun 5 Aug 12

If they haven't got permission to be there let alone have tables and chairs there then why dont the council remove the chairs as they are an obstruction !

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jw9202 says...
6:52pm Sun 5 Aug 12

Surely if they don't have planning permission then any insurance they have would be invalid as they shouldn't be operating, all it needs is someone to have an accident there & then watch the lawsuits fly, that should get the attention of the council.

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mjhudston says...
7:43am Mon 6 Aug 12

Hardens wrote:
It's nothing to do with jobs, coffee or freedom of choice, it's to do with a council not enforcing the laws against this company when if a home-owner proceeded to build an extension without planning permission in their own back garden for instance there would be a case to answer. Just because others get away with breaking the law we should not turn a blind eye to this.
The president had already been set, with Costa Coffee. The councillors are treating Cafe Nero in the same way.

I think it's wrong, and I have written to my councillor demanding an explanation, and for her to provide her position on the matter.

If I find out my councillor has been complicit in breaking the law then I will be looking to take the matter further. I suggest you all do the same!

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Nickthegreek says...
8:26am Mon 6 Aug 12

Whilst the councillors huff & puff about whether to send a letter or not, one of them could have sent in a Planning Enforcement Notice http://www.wiltshire
.gov.uk/planningandd
evelopment/planninge
nforcement/planninge
nforcementcomplaintf
ormnorth.htm
'30 days to comply or apply'. MJ, to fuel your fire, if your councillor felt so strongly about it why haven't they applied to enforce it?

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Capricorn 1 says...
8:30am Mon 6 Aug 12

How about this- everyone who feels strongly about the illegally placed chairs placed there by the company that does not have planning permission for the cafe, sit on those chairs and not buy anything from them?

Maybe take a thermos along.

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HughBriss says...
8:56am Mon 6 Aug 12

Capricorn 1 says...
8:30am Mon 6 Aug 12

How about this- everyone who feels strongly about the illegally placed chairs placed there by the company that does not have planning permission for the cafe, sit on those chairs and not buy anything from them?

My thoughts exactly

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chips-in-ham says...
10:26am Mon 6 Aug 12

When shall we arrange it for then let's mass protest?

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ElliotGood says...
1:09pm Mon 6 Aug 12

Seriously?! its a few chairs and tables outside a cafe, surely there are better things to moan about. I hope when you've had a busy day and would just like a sit down and a coffee there are no chairs. although you'd probably moan about that too..

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reme22 says...
7:00pm Mon 6 Aug 12

I would assume Caffe Nero have got permission for the chairs, from the management/owners of Borough Prade.

Caffe Nero did not shut down Coffee Central. Starbucks killed them when they opened up opposite. If I was the owners of Coffee Central I would be asking why are our once loyal customers so fickle.

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Hardens says...
12:54am Tue 7 Aug 12

Not being familiar with these things I "asked around" today and am now under the impression that no rules have been broken, planning permission can be applied for and given retrospectively, and that the there is really no reason to deny it when it is applied for in this case (which would explain why an appeal would be successful!).
I suppose there wasn't space to add those vital lines when writing the article?
Anyway, I stand corrected and wish the new staff well.

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Don Jones says...
12:55pm Tue 7 Aug 12

Hardens, reme22, underdogs, Loslane14 & Ian Bertram - be off with you. This is no place for sensible and measured comments. It's for complaining about some people getting away with things and cursing (unpaid) councillors who are betraying the trust of all the other people. I eagerly await the phrase "but what do you expect, in today's broken Britain?"

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Loslane14 says...
3:33pm Tue 7 Aug 12

Don Jones! "be off with you" seriously!!! Lol. It's not about complaining it's about individual opinions to which we are all entitled! Just don't happen to think a coffee shops permission is that big of a deal. Don't like it don't drink there. Of course the council are a law of their own as we found out with Goldiggers, which I was always under the impression was a listed building.

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Hardens says...
9:18pm Tue 7 Aug 12

Loslane14 wrote:
Don Jones! "be off with you" seriously!!! Lol. It's not about complaining it's about individual opinions to which we are all entitled! Just don't happen to think a coffee shops permission is that big of a deal. Don't like it don't drink there. Of course the council are a law of their own as we found out with Goldiggers, which I was always under the impression was a listed building.
Hang on! Goldiggers was listed? Did they get planning permission? This country's going to the dogs...

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TrevorMacdonalds says...
10:11pm Tue 7 Aug 12

It's only some chairs.

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piddle says...
9:24am Wed 8 Aug 12

I love sitting outside in the sunshine drinking my coffee and watching all and sundry complaining about me sitting outside drinking my coffee. I think Chippenham needs more charity shops!

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Roy-Orbit of Chippenham says...
1:35pm Wed 8 Aug 12

I buy a jar of cheap coffee from Tesco for 47p and get about 50 cups out of that, sat at home on my own comfier chair. You do the maths.

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underdogs says...
1:53pm Wed 8 Aug 12

I guess everyone has had their say on this matter, some accurate some not ! I note REVOLUTIONS in New Road also has tables and chairs outside, on a very narrow pavement besides a busy road in the town centre, and ive seen people using wheelchairs having to go on the road to get past. Clearly where the council offices are directly opposite, it is not an issue in the eyes of the responsible council officers - unless maybe the business is owned by a councillor ? DON JONES - I think you will find our town councillors are very well paid - even get free coffee at meetings, and if they are also a district coucillor I believe they get paid more than double ! I fear seating outside of other establishments is also a fire risk in some cases as they block the main entrance to the buildings ! Im sure our councillors could take a PROPER look at this situation, and save the taxpayer further expense of involving official council staff time in dealing with these matters. Some interesting points raised here by those commenting, is Chippenham being run how the people of Chippenham would like it to be ?

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chips-in-ham says...
2:24pm Wed 8 Aug 12

Well we'd better ask Owen inskip as he seems to know what Chippenham people want !!!

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Don Jones says...
2:49pm Wed 8 Aug 12

underdogs, I thought that Chippenham Town Councillors were like those in Devizes and didn't get an allowance. A quick Google suggests that I was wrong and they probably get c£1,500pa each. Considering they should be doing a minimum of 5 hours' work a week, I don’t think that’s even minimum wage. District Councillors disappeared from Wiltshire in 2007 but I guess that was easy to miss. Those elected to Wiltshire Council get a reasonable whack but I wasn’t referring to them – just the Town Councillors.

One point tat has been missed is the fact that the Town Council ahs no real powers on planning issues. They can advise but the decision is taken at County Hall. If it gets as far as members, it could be considered by people from (say) Downton, Mere and Tidworth. Why would they want to burden the whole county with costs relating to a town they might not know? There was more local accountability in this sort of thing in the pr-Unitary days.

Yor final point about how Chippenham is run makes me smile. Lots of people raise objections – often from behind pseudonyms - to how their towns are run. Very few actually get off their jacksies and do anything about it. Are you one of the few?

I did like your ‘free coffee’ joke, though.

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underdogs says...
5:43pm Wed 8 Aug 12

Presumeably town councillors try to get elected so they can represent the wishes of people of the town, and to do their bit to ensure everything runs as it should. Im not interested in 'politics' but Chippenham Council does appear to be a closed shop to newcomers - it seems to be the same names over 10 -20 years in the majority of cases. But who listens if people ask for change, it appears even the Mayors wife Nina Phillips complaint didnt go anywhere - as she stated - so if no one listens whats the point in wasting my time ? Have you brought about any improvements yourself Don - do people in a position of power listen to you ?

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underdogs says...
6:09pm Wed 8 Aug 12

Its good to google ! Quite a few of our town councillors are also county councillors, including Nina Phillips, and Judy Rooke who I understand was/is ? a barrister so no problem with getting the right info or writing a letter ! As district councillors ( part time ) they both receive in the region of 12k from the county, and we have 20 district councillors in the Calne-Chippenham-Cor
sham-Melksham area - not too far away! County Councillor Jane Scott does well- £47,103 paid to her by the county last year !

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Don Jones says...
12:33pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Interesting points, underdog, but how can the Town Council be a 'closed shop'? Members are elected, not appointed. I accept that it can appear an old boys' (and girls') club as the same names appear time after time but surely that's down to the electorate - or those that bother to vote, anyway.

My experience is of Devizes Town Council. All the councillors I know or have known put what they believe to be the good of the town first. And many of them get re-elected time after time. It can appear a bit of a closed shop, I admit, as only one of the eighteen members is under 50 (most of the remainder are 60+) and there are three married couple and one mother and daughter combo. But all the members who actually do something are trying to serve Devizes. I would guess Chippenham is similar.

As I said before, Town Councils have very little power these days. Plenty of responsibility, yes, but the power rests at County Hall.

I've been part of a few changes but I can't claim anything major - few who've been at Town/Parish level can ... although that doesn’t stop a lot of them! If I’ve got anything to say, I know that most f the councillors – especially the Mayor – will take the time to listen to me. But the changes are that they’ll be able to do sfa. And so will our Wiltshire Councillors – although the trouble there is that they’re a minority group so seem to lose out against the ruling group.

And whatever you think of Jane Scott, there's not many people who would prepared to take on a job with that much responsibility for that sort of salary. I certainly wouldn't. It might seem a fair whack but she has to contribute her pound of flesh for it.

Anyway, you might not be into politics but a lot of what is called 'politics' at the local level is about things like the Caffe Nero cases. They're not party matters but concern local gripes and grievances. And the fewer people who are prepared to get involved, the less things will change.

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underdogs says...
1:13pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Don, I fear it is a lack of choice at the time of elections that result in the same faces remaining as councillors, usually the same candidate standing for each party - yet no one for labour ever stands! Maybe that tells its own story ? In many cases it is the old boys and girls club here too, and the odd husband and wife ( no offence intended ), same sort of ages too but ive found the local councillors do not always listen when there are problems, indeed one councillor has been known to just walk away when people try to talk to her about very serious issues in her area. Some seem to 'cherry pick' what they will try to resolve, sometimes whilst ignoring other more serious issues. Some just go for the photo opportunities in the paper when certain issues arise ! I think as a town council, whilst they may not have much power, they do have a voice - and it should be OUR voice, and can influence policy and decisions on rare occasions. I agree decisions are often based on politics, rather than the general good of the electorate. With respect, I think maybe Jane Scott actually takes home far more than just the figure shown on the Wiltshire Council website, and I feel her responsibilities may be great but her accountabilities seem minimal. It would be nice if more people were allowed to get involved, and great also if they were actually listened to, but ive not found that to be the case in Chippenham. Hence, maybe that is why so few people are prepared to get involved - as they will find a closed door ! And does it appear to be getting better or worse ?

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judgeatnam says...
3:47pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Don Jones wrote:
Interesting points, underdog, but how can the Town Council be a 'closed shop'? Members are elected, not appointed. I accept that it can appear an old boys' (and girls') club as the same names appear time after time but surely that's down to the electorate - or those that bother to vote, anyway.

My experience is of Devizes Town Council. All the councillors I know or have known put what they believe to be the good of the town first. And many of them get re-elected time after time. It can appear a bit of a closed shop, I admit, as only one of the eighteen members is under 50 (most of the remainder are 60+) and there are three married couple and one mother and daughter combo. But all the members who actually do something are trying to serve Devizes. I would guess Chippenham is similar.

As I said before, Town Councils have very little power these days. Plenty of responsibility, yes, but the power rests at County Hall.

I've been part of a few changes but I can't claim anything major - few who've been at Town/Parish level can ... although that doesn’t stop a lot of them! If I’ve got anything to say, I know that most f the councillors – especially the Mayor – will take the time to listen to me. But the changes are that they’ll be able to do sfa. And so will our Wiltshire Councillors – although the trouble there is that they’re a minority group so seem to lose out against the ruling group.

And whatever you think of Jane Scott, there's not many people who would prepared to take on a job with that much responsibility for that sort of salary. I certainly wouldn't. It might seem a fair whack but she has to contribute her pound of flesh for it.

Anyway, you might not be into politics but a lot of what is called 'politics' at the local level is about things like the Caffe Nero cases. They're not party matters but concern local gripes and grievances. And the fewer people who are prepared to get involved, the less things will change.
What is the problem? Chairs, coffee, sun, summer, tills being filled..........

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Don Jones says...
8:51am Fri 10 Aug 12

Erm ... judgeatnam ... where did I say there was a problem with the coffee shop?

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RobinsTalk says...
2:09pm Fri 10 Aug 12

It would appear that the 'offending' tables and chairs have now been removed, and are back along the side of the shop where they were before.

All this talk of local councillors reminds me of The Vicar of Dibley,
"Do you think Cafe Nero should be given planning permission Jim?"
"No, no, no, no, no.......yes!" Ha ha.

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underdogs says...
4:20pm Fri 10 Aug 12

Wow thats a relief for our town councillors - they wont have to draft out a letter at their next meeting after all !! 40 interesting comments, many people supporting this new coffee shop - thats good to see - & problem solved ! Now all this hot airs about, what will be on the agenda next - the tables & chairs outside the town centre pubs ?

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