Your Gazette
Get involved: send your photos, videos, news & views by texting 'WILTS GAZETTE' to 80360 or email »
Your opinion counts so tell us what you think about our stories. Add your comment below each story or e-mail the editor by clicking here.
Rescue package for leisure centre
11:09am Tuesday 17th April 2007
Comments (35)Calne Town Council has pledged £50,000 to anyone who takes on White Horse Leisure Centre.
The decision was made last night at a meeting of the full council.
The cash, which comes from this year's town council reserves and next year's precept, will be split in half and paid over two years.
The vote was cast after a desperate plea from leisure centre rescue group chairman Mick Devonport.
Mr Devonport, of Honeysuckle Close, said: "I can see in the eyes of the people that many people want to support the leisure centre but there are some that do not.
"We need the support of the town council before we can speak to the district. Why should the district council want to help us if it sees that not even the local council will?"
Documents detailing a rescue package for the leisure centre in Calne were delivered to North Wiltshire District Council this morning.
The plans, drawn up by Athena Leisure, were handed to chief executive of North Wiltshire District Council Delwyn Burbidge.
Athena Leisure believes that with the £50,000 grant now pledged by Calne Town Council it can keep the White Horse Leisure Centre open for the next 18 months.
But Mr Devonport says that everyone involved must now act fast as vandals have already struck the leisure centre since the swimming pool shut on March 31.
Mr Devonport worries that nearby John Bentley School, which took over the sports courts and other facilities for use by its pupils, will suffer if the vandalism is allowed to continue.
Ground floor windows were boarded up but upstairs in the building has already come under attack.
Speaking after his speech Mr Devonport said: "We've got one organisation trying to save the centre for the very people who are damaging it but who may at one point want or need to use it.
"The council has boarded the lower levels but windows have been smashed on the upstairs. We can only hope to see an end to it now that the kids have gone back to school."
Your Say YourThe Wiltshire Gazette and Herald
Myrtle Gill, Calne says...
10:00am Tue 17 Apr 07
Brilliant, 'local resident'!!
Calne really needs people like you. What a defeatist you are. If we were all of the same opinion as you, Calne would have absolutely nothing at all. If this rescue package can be implemented then I am all for it. So whoever you are, 'local resident', don't go sounding the death knell yet.
Calne really needs people like you. What a defeatist you are. If we were all of the same opinion as you, Calne would have absolutely nothing at all. If this rescue package can be implemented then I am all for it. So whoever you are, 'local resident', don't go sounding the death knell yet.
angie easton, calne says...
10:33am Tue 17 Apr 07
I did attend the council meeting last night, however couldn't stay to the end, does anyone know the outcome.......do we have calne council's backing to save the sports centre?
also 'calne resident' I always find it very strange that people with attitude like your own are never prepared to put your name to your comments!....you are so negative, I wonder do you have a hidden agenda?
also 'calne resident' I always find it very strange that people with attitude like your own are never prepared to put your name to your comments!....you are so negative, I wonder do you have a hidden agenda?
Billy, Calne says...
10:54am Tue 17 Apr 07
Yeah Angie The Town Council pledged the cash. Everyone involved should really get a move on now though before the pool is past repair!!
Billy, Calne says...
10:55am Tue 17 Apr 07
Yeah Angie The Town Council pledged the cash. Everyone involved should really get a move on now though before the pool is past repair!!
Brian Heath, Calne says...
1:17pm Tue 17 Apr 07
Angie is right - Calne does not need the likes of 'local resident', and such negative views do no good at all to the cause of keeping the White Horse Leisure Centre open for the use of the people of Calne.
Athena Leisure deserve our support every step of the way, and their lack of experience in this field of business is no barrier to their future success - after all, Alan Sugar knew nothing about computers when he started Amstrad (probably still doesn't!) but he's made multi-millions out of selling the things!
I now call upon NWDC to note the pledge of financial support from the Calne Town Council amd to provide Athena Leisure with whatever resources and assistance they need to get the White Horse Leisure Centre up and running again.
Good luck, Athena!
Athena Leisure deserve our support every step of the way, and their lack of experience in this field of business is no barrier to their future success - after all, Alan Sugar knew nothing about computers when he started Amstrad (probably still doesn't!) but he's made multi-millions out of selling the things!
I now call upon NWDC to note the pledge of financial support from the Calne Town Council amd to provide Athena Leisure with whatever resources and assistance they need to get the White Horse Leisure Centre up and running again.
Good luck, Athena!
Philip Guest, Calne says...
1:30pm Tue 17 Apr 07
In response to Angies point the CTC did agree to £25K to be paid over two years as monthly payments to NWDC to cover the Council Tax that would arise. Many of the councillors were sceptical about the quality of the Athena proposal (confidential to the councillors), but passed it through since, in essence, they believe that NWDC are responsible for the facilities in North Wilts and were not, in principle, opposed to trying and keeping the Centre going.
NWDC issued a Position Statement ahead of the meeting saying they had viewed the Athena proposals and considered it failing to meet the criteria they had set out none of this touchy-feely stuff gathering of local concerns, then meeting to complete their review! Some of these concerns are stronger, or more reasonable, than others. Given CTCs agreement to proceed I believe that there will another meeting this week to see if an alternative can be worked out, with Athena, or whoever. If you wish to direct your letters of concern, then I believe the Chief Executive, Mr Delwyn Burbidge, at NWDC is your man.
As for local resident, where are the two other facilities in the town? St Marys, I understand is not accepting new bookings (but with membership only available @£50 plus £330 pa not everybody can afford that). Which bits of WHLC are falling down? The plant I know is not in that good repair, but we do not have costings to judge that. What was on NWDC web site I can no longer find, but Calne wasnt the worse of the six, as I recall. This is for the NWDC and Athena to trash out. Nobody is asking for an open-cheque to be handed over, but there are approaches that can be used to minimise but certainly not eliminate risk in this area. However, if you have a facility it is worth doing the best to keep it going. The figures used for regular users was not given for all the sites many users do only want an occasional swim/exercise, easy access for their children to learn, and for help in recovery from all manner of physical conditions. Athena may be required to bring a fresh approach; they are two small to micro-manage the site, but would very likely not choose that approach. It is likely that the local management would be more direct and focused with new ideas brought to the fore. It is a hunch at the end of the day and they may not be able to grow the WHLC, but if a cost comparable to Cricklade (and doubtless a lot less than the remaining five centres) can mean they keep it going then I believe it is worth trying. Athena are taking business and financial risks in trying to enter this market segment, too. Many folk feel aggrieved because they are paying for lack of control with NWLL/NWDC and so think best endeavours should be made to keep it going. There appears little prospect of anything by way of an alternative on the horizon for many years.
NWDC issued a Position Statement ahead of the meeting saying they had viewed the Athena proposals and considered it failing to meet the criteria they had set out none of this touchy-feely stuff gathering of local concerns, then meeting to complete their review! Some of these concerns are stronger, or more reasonable, than others. Given CTCs agreement to proceed I believe that there will another meeting this week to see if an alternative can be worked out, with Athena, or whoever. If you wish to direct your letters of concern, then I believe the Chief Executive, Mr Delwyn Burbidge, at NWDC is your man.
As for local resident, where are the two other facilities in the town? St Marys, I understand is not accepting new bookings (but with membership only available @£50 plus £330 pa not everybody can afford that). Which bits of WHLC are falling down? The plant I know is not in that good repair, but we do not have costings to judge that. What was on NWDC web site I can no longer find, but Calne wasnt the worse of the six, as I recall. This is for the NWDC and Athena to trash out. Nobody is asking for an open-cheque to be handed over, but there are approaches that can be used to minimise but certainly not eliminate risk in this area. However, if you have a facility it is worth doing the best to keep it going. The figures used for regular users was not given for all the sites many users do only want an occasional swim/exercise, easy access for their children to learn, and for help in recovery from all manner of physical conditions. Athena may be required to bring a fresh approach; they are two small to micro-manage the site, but would very likely not choose that approach. It is likely that the local management would be more direct and focused with new ideas brought to the fore. It is a hunch at the end of the day and they may not be able to grow the WHLC, but if a cost comparable to Cricklade (and doubtless a lot less than the remaining five centres) can mean they keep it going then I believe it is worth trying. Athena are taking business and financial risks in trying to enter this market segment, too. Many folk feel aggrieved because they are paying for lack of control with NWLL/NWDC and so think best endeavours should be made to keep it going. There appears little prospect of anything by way of an alternative on the horizon for many years.
Local resident, Calne says...
1:56pm Tue 17 Apr 07
I am not opposed to the leisure centre I am just a realist. I have a number of questions for all you believers
1. Where are the staff for the leisure centre going to come from? Most of the previous staff have been re-deployed and by all accounts are fairly happy.
2. Who is going to pay for all the vandalism that has taken place?
3. Some equipment has been removed, where are the finances coming from to purchase more?
4. Who is going to fill the pool and run the plant? I doubt anyone from Athena will even know where the tap is!
5. Who will train any new staff?
6. How on earth do Athena think they are going to generate enough income to keep the centre open? If this was such a viable option do you not think DC Leisure or some other professional leisure organisation would have come to the rescue sooner?
I was always against shutting the leisure centre and used it 2-3 times a week but I live in the real world, once the decision had been made it should have been stuck to. NWDC should not waste anymore money on this facility, they should save for a new one while at the same time invest in the other 4 sites that are left. These centres should be their focus.
It is not practical to re-open WHLC, as much as I understand everyones resentment and disappointment at its closure you must all simply realise there is no way it can be opened again for the public.
Athena are not the answer, how on earth can you compare these people to Sir Alan Sugar?! If they were so great and had a real solid business plan dont you think they would be in by now? I know they will blame NWDC for not meeting them blah, blah, blah but come on if it stacked up they would be running it now.
1. Where are the staff for the leisure centre going to come from? Most of the previous staff have been re-deployed and by all accounts are fairly happy.
2. Who is going to pay for all the vandalism that has taken place?
3. Some equipment has been removed, where are the finances coming from to purchase more?
4. Who is going to fill the pool and run the plant? I doubt anyone from Athena will even know where the tap is!
5. Who will train any new staff?
6. How on earth do Athena think they are going to generate enough income to keep the centre open? If this was such a viable option do you not think DC Leisure or some other professional leisure organisation would have come to the rescue sooner?
I was always against shutting the leisure centre and used it 2-3 times a week but I live in the real world, once the decision had been made it should have been stuck to. NWDC should not waste anymore money on this facility, they should save for a new one while at the same time invest in the other 4 sites that are left. These centres should be their focus.
It is not practical to re-open WHLC, as much as I understand everyones resentment and disappointment at its closure you must all simply realise there is no way it can be opened again for the public.
Athena are not the answer, how on earth can you compare these people to Sir Alan Sugar?! If they were so great and had a real solid business plan dont you think they would be in by now? I know they will blame NWDC for not meeting them blah, blah, blah but come on if it stacked up they would be running it now.
angie easton, calne says...
4:43pm Tue 17 Apr 07
well I say good luck Athena! onwards and upwards! and a great big thankyou to Mick Davenport who spoke last night at the meeting with such passion. Lets keep the pressure on - and not give up! not while there is a chance anyway.
Philip Guest, Calne says...
6:59pm Tue 17 Apr 07
Since Local Resident asks more questions (than he/she responds to when replied):
1)some staff might come back, I suspect part of the arrangement with DC was to take on more staff than they probably wanted to; not all will have wanted to based at one or more other pools. There are other trained/trainable staff around.
2)2) Such vandalism that has taken place follows directly from leaving the building out of use; this is part of the risk equation (although this ones got zero or negative benefit, with open-ended costs). Glad youve highlighted a major downside with the current plan.
3)3) Equipment is leased these days Athena will have to prove to a another business that they are worth the risk (and NWLC Councillors and professional staff to make sure that contractually this is firmly in their court).
4)4) Athena will likely buy in professional expertise. Many councils and companies do this anyway in lots of areas; some good/bad points but nothing new to this case. It is a more specialist area, but there will be expertise out there.
5)5) Training routes will be opened-up. Athena will look to some experience and some new staff to develop skills; they will probably be better incentivised to work, but other conditions (eg, pensions) I suspect will be poorer.
6)6) It will be tricky to get the cash flow right; made much worse by the abrupt news of closure, followed by the gradual demise of Calnes prospects. If a continuation to the end of summer (clear school period and use cheap to heat, popular summer period) had been possible I think we would have had a much better decision (either way). The reason St Marys places at £330 pa have gone is because there are people prepared to pay; the trick is to segment the market to balance best what most people want, at a price they can afford, whilst at the same time maintain a service and health-promoting culture that does not put price before anything. A lick of paint suggested by one councillor at a previous CTC meeting but dismissed by another councillor can also be one part of a difference. I noticed an article last week on the home improvement scale only a professional paint job yielded any short-term significant improvement in house value; appearance and presentation also matter, even if regulars are prepared to let these things go.
I dont think you should be calling people believers when you make grand assertions like It is not practical to re-open WHLC you must all simply realise there is no way it can be opened again for the public. There is an acknowledged risk to the water quality from leaving it in the current state (part of the urgency of the situation) but do you have any particular background or detailed knowledge for saying the above? As I understand it, DC Leisure would have been prepared to take on Calne. It is a pity you did not come to the CTC meeting and air your concerns; a counter argument would have helped sharpen-up the case on both sides.
There are good grounds to be critical and sceptical, but to be risk-adverse and confuse the two is not the same. Anyhow, I suspect NWDC are all three, so you may find some comfort in that. If feel the lost of WHLC, but genuinely believed that funding should be consolidated, then perhaps your energies could be better focused in ensuring that if WHLC is demolished that NWDC ring-fence any monies arising out of sale of the land.
1)some staff might come back, I suspect part of the arrangement with DC was to take on more staff than they probably wanted to; not all will have wanted to based at one or more other pools. There are other trained/trainable staff around.
2)2) Such vandalism that has taken place follows directly from leaving the building out of use; this is part of the risk equation (although this ones got zero or negative benefit, with open-ended costs). Glad youve highlighted a major downside with the current plan.
3)3) Equipment is leased these days Athena will have to prove to a another business that they are worth the risk (and NWLC Councillors and professional staff to make sure that contractually this is firmly in their court).
4)4) Athena will likely buy in professional expertise. Many councils and companies do this anyway in lots of areas; some good/bad points but nothing new to this case. It is a more specialist area, but there will be expertise out there.
5)5) Training routes will be opened-up. Athena will look to some experience and some new staff to develop skills; they will probably be better incentivised to work, but other conditions (eg, pensions) I suspect will be poorer.
6)6) It will be tricky to get the cash flow right; made much worse by the abrupt news of closure, followed by the gradual demise of Calnes prospects. If a continuation to the end of summer (clear school period and use cheap to heat, popular summer period) had been possible I think we would have had a much better decision (either way). The reason St Marys places at £330 pa have gone is because there are people prepared to pay; the trick is to segment the market to balance best what most people want, at a price they can afford, whilst at the same time maintain a service and health-promoting culture that does not put price before anything. A lick of paint suggested by one councillor at a previous CTC meeting but dismissed by another councillor can also be one part of a difference. I noticed an article last week on the home improvement scale only a professional paint job yielded any short-term significant improvement in house value; appearance and presentation also matter, even if regulars are prepared to let these things go.
I dont think you should be calling people believers when you make grand assertions like It is not practical to re-open WHLC you must all simply realise there is no way it can be opened again for the public. There is an acknowledged risk to the water quality from leaving it in the current state (part of the urgency of the situation) but do you have any particular background or detailed knowledge for saying the above? As I understand it, DC Leisure would have been prepared to take on Calne. It is a pity you did not come to the CTC meeting and air your concerns; a counter argument would have helped sharpen-up the case on both sides.
There are good grounds to be critical and sceptical, but to be risk-adverse and confuse the two is not the same. Anyhow, I suspect NWDC are all three, so you may find some comfort in that. If feel the lost of WHLC, but genuinely believed that funding should be consolidated, then perhaps your energies could be better focused in ensuring that if WHLC is demolished that NWDC ring-fence any monies arising out of sale of the land.
Elaine King, Calne says...
8:37pm Tue 17 Apr 07
Oh you're so scathing and smug "Mr. Local Resident". We don't need your sort of gloom and doom in our campaign to save our Sports Centre. You go ahead and use other private centres in Calne or travel to other towns to use their facilities - that's your choice - but don't ridicule the effots of the good people of Calne who want to keep a centre which, when compared to those in other towns is far superior for many diverse reasons,(although in need of a little TLC.)
You say that Athena can't be compared to Sir Alan Sugar: Why not? I say. Don't forget, the sweetest fruit is usually at the far end of the branch and you sometimes have to go out on a limb to get it!!!
Give Athena a chance and keep your defeatist remarks to yourself Mr Local Resident.
Thankyou so much Mick Devonshire for your splendid plea to Calne Town Council last night. Although I had something to say about the Calne Cemetary, I was unfortunately unwell and had to leave before the matter of the Leisure Centre came up. However, there were plenty of people there who I'm sure were squarely behind you. Let's just hope now that Athena and NWDC can arrive at a mutually beneficial outcome.
You say that Athena can't be compared to Sir Alan Sugar: Why not? I say. Don't forget, the sweetest fruit is usually at the far end of the branch and you sometimes have to go out on a limb to get it!!!
Give Athena a chance and keep your defeatist remarks to yourself Mr Local Resident.
Thankyou so much Mick Devonshire for your splendid plea to Calne Town Council last night. Although I had something to say about the Calne Cemetary, I was unfortunately unwell and had to leave before the matter of the Leisure Centre came up. However, there were plenty of people there who I'm sure were squarely behind you. Let's just hope now that Athena and NWDC can arrive at a mutually beneficial outcome.
Peter Dolman, Calne says...
10:43pm Tue 17 Apr 07
Despite many comments to the contrary all Calne Town Councillors have supported the idea of a contribution towards a rescue plan for the leisure centre. What Calne residents should be aware is that should the £50,000 be called upon then your council tax will increased by approx £8.50 for the year 2008/09 to pay for it. This will be on top of any inflation increase and any other spending that the new council deems fit to spend. The final increase could be in the region of £10 to £12 or more!
This has to be remembered as Calne although not the most expensive place to live in North Wiltshire already does more than it legally required to do which has to be paid for.
This cost will have to paid by Calne residents only and not by the estimated 50% of users who live elsewhere. It can be argued that this is unfair especially as the likes of Calne Without Parish Council only charge in the region of £7 per annum in total against the potential increase to Calne residents to aid any rescue plan.
This charge will be levied against all houses irrespective of ability to pay or if you actually use the leisure centre which the vast majority of residents do not.
I would like to reinforce what I said at Mondays council meeting that the confidential business plan which we cannot talk about is a document full of gaps and concrete facts but full of wishes and hopes. It is not a document that a sound business is likely to produce a sound business. From the information that has been supplied the much lauded financial risk to Athena Leisure shareholders is minimal as they do not appear to be putting up much of their own money to risk.
With £50,000 from CTC and a potential £60,000 from NWDC can some one from Athena categorically confirm what is going to be their up front financial committment?
Peter Dolman
Calne Town Councillor
Lickhill Ward
Liberal Democrate
This has to be remembered as Calne although not the most expensive place to live in North Wiltshire already does more than it legally required to do which has to be paid for.
This cost will have to paid by Calne residents only and not by the estimated 50% of users who live elsewhere. It can be argued that this is unfair especially as the likes of Calne Without Parish Council only charge in the region of £7 per annum in total against the potential increase to Calne residents to aid any rescue plan.
This charge will be levied against all houses irrespective of ability to pay or if you actually use the leisure centre which the vast majority of residents do not.
I would like to reinforce what I said at Mondays council meeting that the confidential business plan which we cannot talk about is a document full of gaps and concrete facts but full of wishes and hopes. It is not a document that a sound business is likely to produce a sound business. From the information that has been supplied the much lauded financial risk to Athena Leisure shareholders is minimal as they do not appear to be putting up much of their own money to risk.
With £50,000 from CTC and a potential £60,000 from NWDC can some one from Athena categorically confirm what is going to be their up front financial committment?
Peter Dolman
Calne Town Councillor
Lickhill Ward
Liberal Democrate
Julie Lovelock, Calne says...
12:09am Wed 18 Apr 07
I would like to thank Councillor Dolman for making the proposal that CTC do support the request for a contribution towards the rates if the Athena (or any other) bid is successful. Yes, I'm sure that none of us would relish an additional increase to our council tax payments, but at least, hopefully, we may have something to show for it. The poor quality of the business plan submitted by Athena Leisure - would that have something to do with the lack of information provided by NWDC? One of their main blocking tactics appears to have been dragging their feet in providing financial and employee data. After all, it can hardly be 'commercially sensitive' now as the centre is shut.I received a letter from our MP today and he sent me a copy of the reply from NWDC he had received to his letter. This letter was sent by Graham Wilson who is the Project Manager in charge of the proposed closure of WHLC. I have just sent him an email as I thought it might be useful to draw his attention to some of the comments that have been shared on this site. I would like to suggest that you may all like to do the same as we have wondered in the past if anybody from NWDC does read this. His email address is gwilson@northwilts.gov.uk
James Rollands, Calne says...
8:44am Wed 18 Apr 07
On reading all the comments above I am quite surprised at the low level of comments fro people wanting to save the centre. I had been led to believe that there was a huge campaign but it seems that it is only a handful of people trying to preserve their centre, it is in fact all of ours but most residents dont choose to use it.
As someone who lives in Calne I would be extremely upset if my council tax is raised again to fund the centre. Thank you Mr Dolman for making us aware of this, now please go back to the council and say that the residents do not wish to pay any more. I am sure this will upset a few people who are trying to save the centre but I do not use the centre and I dont know many people who do. Mr Dolman, as a suggestion why not have a survey on May 4th at all the polling stations and see what Joe Public wants. It should not be the case that whoever shouts the loudest wins.
Think about this CTC, if the centre was so well used would it not be the case that it would be financially sound? If 5% of the residents had been members the centre would have been financially sound! I could go on.
If you ask the average person on the street if they want the centre to open I am sure they will say yes but then ask them to pay £10 month whether they use it or not and see their response.
I would much rather pay £10 a month and have a proper CCTV system and more police officers to help fight the anti social behaviour of some of the youths (dont get any ideas about them using the centre, they wont or if they do they will drive away other customers).
This needs to be a balanced argument but it looks like I am going to be £10 out of pocket for a facility I never used (along with the majority of Calne).
As someone who lives in Calne I would be extremely upset if my council tax is raised again to fund the centre. Thank you Mr Dolman for making us aware of this, now please go back to the council and say that the residents do not wish to pay any more. I am sure this will upset a few people who are trying to save the centre but I do not use the centre and I dont know many people who do. Mr Dolman, as a suggestion why not have a survey on May 4th at all the polling stations and see what Joe Public wants. It should not be the case that whoever shouts the loudest wins.
Think about this CTC, if the centre was so well used would it not be the case that it would be financially sound? If 5% of the residents had been members the centre would have been financially sound! I could go on.
If you ask the average person on the street if they want the centre to open I am sure they will say yes but then ask them to pay £10 month whether they use it or not and see their response.
I would much rather pay £10 a month and have a proper CCTV system and more police officers to help fight the anti social behaviour of some of the youths (dont get any ideas about them using the centre, they wont or if they do they will drive away other customers).
This needs to be a balanced argument but it looks like I am going to be £10 out of pocket for a facility I never used (along with the majority of Calne).
Peter Jones, Silverbush, Calne says...
8:49am Wed 18 Apr 07
Angie is right - Calne does not need the likes of 'local resident', and such negative views do no good at all to the cause of keeping the White Horse Leisure Centre open for the use of the people of Calne.
So what you are saying is that unless we all support the re-opening of the centre we should shut up!
We live in a democracy and are all entitled to our views. I don't think local resident is the the only one who wants to see the leisure centre stay shut.
Brian Heath, Calne says...
10:37am Wed 18 Apr 07
Thanks, Mr 'Doom & Gloom' Dolman, for pointing out the obvious need for the Calne Town Council's Council Tax precept to rise to meet the cost of resurrecting the White Horse Leisure Centre. But what a pity you didn't spell it out more clearly for Mr Rollands, who seems to have interpreted your comments as a threat to put his council tax up by £10 a month! Just to clarify, the increase would be about £10 a YEAR, for two years. That's about the cost of an extra two packs of cigarettes or four pints of beer PER YEAR - the kind of currency more easily understood by people who don't use the Centre, perhaps!
Peter Jones is, I think, totally wrong - I doubt if anyone actually WANTS to see the sports centre stay closed, though many people in the town do seem to have accepted that now that it IS closed, due entirely to the incompetence of the North Wiltshire District Council, then it is likely to stay closed. I don't happen to accept that view: I am more than happy for Athena Leisure or any other body, however inexperienced, to take on the task of resurrecting the Centre provided they can find the money and make a good case. But as Angie points out, it must have been very difficult to put a good business plan together in the face of obvious lack of will on NWDC's part to provide the basic details and funding necessary to put a proper package together. Mr Dolman's references to a lot of gaps and a lack of concrete facts in the 'confidential' package simply reflect Athena's inability to get NWDC to take them seriously enough to give them the background facts and figures they need.
Come on, NWDC - give Athena a chance!
Peter Jones is, I think, totally wrong - I doubt if anyone actually WANTS to see the sports centre stay closed, though many people in the town do seem to have accepted that now that it IS closed, due entirely to the incompetence of the North Wiltshire District Council, then it is likely to stay closed. I don't happen to accept that view: I am more than happy for Athena Leisure or any other body, however inexperienced, to take on the task of resurrecting the Centre provided they can find the money and make a good case. But as Angie points out, it must have been very difficult to put a good business plan together in the face of obvious lack of will on NWDC's part to provide the basic details and funding necessary to put a proper package together. Mr Dolman's references to a lot of gaps and a lack of concrete facts in the 'confidential' package simply reflect Athena's inability to get NWDC to take them seriously enough to give them the background facts and figures they need.
Come on, NWDC - give Athena a chance!
non - user, calne says...
11:48am Wed 18 Apr 07
Come on NWDC see sense and just send Athena packing.
They dont know what they are doing and will just make matters for you worse in the future!!!!
They dont know what they are doing and will just make matters for you worse in the future!!!!
Peter Dolman, Calne says...
1:50pm Wed 18 Apr 07
Further to my recent posting I would like to clarify a number of points. Yes the increase to Calne residents will be approx £8.50 to fund the £50,000 but for the year 2008/09 (ie 1 year) but this may be to much for some.
The issue of financial information is a total red herring especially as NWLL made such large lossess how relavant would that information be. The financial information is not NWDC's to give away it belongs to the administrators/directors of NWLL. They are under no compulsion to disclose it to anyone.
Athena plan to run a different type of operation to which the NWLL's figure will have no relavance.
One thing you can be sure of if Athena are successfull is that the cost of entry will increase by at least 17.5% but I expect it to be nearer 50%. This alone will reduce usage as many will not be able to afford the extra, it would be cheaper to go elsewhere.
Last the fitness roon equipment I understand was leased which means neither NWLL or NWDC owned it. When the administrator was appointed the leasing agreement would have automatically terminated and the equipment recovered by the Leasing company, standard practise. To re equip the fitness room Athena would either have to purchase new equipment or enter into a new lease agreement neither option has been included into the business plan.
Peter Dolman
Liberal Democrat
Calne Town Coucillor
Lickhill Ward
The issue of financial information is a total red herring especially as NWLL made such large lossess how relavant would that information be. The financial information is not NWDC's to give away it belongs to the administrators/directors of NWLL. They are under no compulsion to disclose it to anyone.
Athena plan to run a different type of operation to which the NWLL's figure will have no relavance.
One thing you can be sure of if Athena are successfull is that the cost of entry will increase by at least 17.5% but I expect it to be nearer 50%. This alone will reduce usage as many will not be able to afford the extra, it would be cheaper to go elsewhere.
Last the fitness roon equipment I understand was leased which means neither NWLL or NWDC owned it. When the administrator was appointed the leasing agreement would have automatically terminated and the equipment recovered by the Leasing company, standard practise. To re equip the fitness room Athena would either have to purchase new equipment or enter into a new lease agreement neither option has been included into the business plan.
Peter Dolman
Liberal Democrat
Calne Town Coucillor
Lickhill Ward
Elaine King, Calne says...
2:08pm Wed 18 Apr 07
Thankyou Brian Heath for clarifying the costs for James Rolland's benefit. It's approximately 70PENCE PER MONTH Mr Rollands not £10 p.m. as you stated.
Why you should think it's only a handful of people trying to save the Centre, I do not know. If you had been to the very first meeting held at the centre, you'd have seen several hundred people filing in to give their support for "Their Centre" and,yes you are right Mr Rollands, it is "ALL OF OUR CENTRE".
You make me laugh!! You say on the one hand that we are only a handful of people trying to save the centre - and on the other hand, you take it upon yourself to tell Mr Dolman to inform the Council that the residents do not wish to pay any more!! How many residents are YOU speaking for Mr Rollands????
In any case, this is'nt just about you and the rest of the adult community, it's also for the people who have no voice in this matter, namely the children of this town.
There are hundreds of children here and the population is getting larger each year. I Have yet to meet the child who does'nt enjoy playing around in water and I believe that it's every child's right to be able to learn to swim, if not within the school curriculum then within their leisure time. I know that my own children were always at the pool and their children - my grandchildren have spent many hours there along with their friends. As I have said before, they enjoyed nothing more than a birthday party there where they could swim and play on the floating tropical islands.
I understand that Calne does have a good CCTV system, Mr Rollands, but lacks the volunteers to man the screens.
As for 'MORE' police, 'SOME' would be nice !!.
My thanks also to you Julie Lovelock for the information regarding the letter from our M.P. It's good to have some light on the situation as, to date, we have all been kept very much in the dark. It would be interesting to know what Mr. Graham Wilson, Project Manager in charge of the proposed closure of the WHLC, said in his reply to our M.P.
In the meantime I will do as you suggest and e-mail Mr. Graham Wilson as I have certainly wondered if anyone from NWDC has read our comments here.
As for Peter Jones - What on earth could your motives be for wanting the Leisure Centre closed?? I really am at a loss to understand !!!.
Why you should think it's only a handful of people trying to save the Centre, I do not know. If you had been to the very first meeting held at the centre, you'd have seen several hundred people filing in to give their support for "Their Centre" and,yes you are right Mr Rollands, it is "ALL OF OUR CENTRE".
You make me laugh!! You say on the one hand that we are only a handful of people trying to save the centre - and on the other hand, you take it upon yourself to tell Mr Dolman to inform the Council that the residents do not wish to pay any more!! How many residents are YOU speaking for Mr Rollands????
In any case, this is'nt just about you and the rest of the adult community, it's also for the people who have no voice in this matter, namely the children of this town.
There are hundreds of children here and the population is getting larger each year. I Have yet to meet the child who does'nt enjoy playing around in water and I believe that it's every child's right to be able to learn to swim, if not within the school curriculum then within their leisure time. I know that my own children were always at the pool and their children - my grandchildren have spent many hours there along with their friends. As I have said before, they enjoyed nothing more than a birthday party there where they could swim and play on the floating tropical islands.
I understand that Calne does have a good CCTV system, Mr Rollands, but lacks the volunteers to man the screens.
As for 'MORE' police, 'SOME' would be nice !!.
My thanks also to you Julie Lovelock for the information regarding the letter from our M.P. It's good to have some light on the situation as, to date, we have all been kept very much in the dark. It would be interesting to know what Mr. Graham Wilson, Project Manager in charge of the proposed closure of the WHLC, said in his reply to our M.P.
In the meantime I will do as you suggest and e-mail Mr. Graham Wilson as I have certainly wondered if anyone from NWDC has read our comments here.
As for Peter Jones - What on earth could your motives be for wanting the Leisure Centre closed?? I really am at a loss to understand !!!.
Helen Spencer, Calne says...
4:45pm Wed 18 Apr 07
''GOOD LUCK ATHENA'' Believe me there is plenty of support out there. Well said Elaine, we must remember the children of the town. With obesity levels at an all time high in adults and children surely the local councils/goverments should be doing all they can to help? i.e providing local people with leisure facilities. I think its great news that the WHLC has been given a chance.
Calne parent, calne says...
5:19pm Wed 18 Apr 07
My children have transferred from the White Horse to St Marys for their weekly swimming lessons. The result - an increase of 50% on the weekly fees that parents pay, no bus- just walking from school, and the year 4 children who can swim the Government requirement of 25m - no swimming at all! How can this be an improvement. Shame on you NWDC for letting this happen. The money I would save on weekly swimming if the White Horse was reopened would certainly cover the extra £10 a year on my Council Tax!!!
WHL 'USER', CALNE says...
5:41pm Wed 18 Apr 07
THE MORE SUPPORT WE GET ON THIS SITE THE BETTER, SO IF YOU WANT CALNE SPORTS CENTRE TO RE-OPEN, JOIN OUR CAMPAIGN & POST YOUR COMMENTS HERE.
Julie Lovelock, Calne says...
9:28pm Wed 18 Apr 07
To go back to Mr Rolland's comment - as it has now been pointed out to him that Calne has a CCTV system that requires volunteers to man it - will he now put himself forward as a volunteer?
I think the comment about anti-social behaviour of young people also needs some clarifying as what about the kids who did use the centre responsibly - whether it was for organised sporting activities or just as a 'safe' area to meet socially, and now can no longer do so - where do they go now and are we going to see an increase in anti-social behaviour in Calne?
I'm getting very fed up with this 'me' generation (not only in relation to the sports centre) - by this I mean those who only want to pay when they can get something out of it for themselves - whatever happened to community spirit and I still think the closure is so short sighted as investment in sports and leisure facilities has got to be an investment for the future otherwise who knows what health problems we will be creating.
I think the comment about anti-social behaviour of young people also needs some clarifying as what about the kids who did use the centre responsibly - whether it was for organised sporting activities or just as a 'safe' area to meet socially, and now can no longer do so - where do they go now and are we going to see an increase in anti-social behaviour in Calne?
I'm getting very fed up with this 'me' generation (not only in relation to the sports centre) - by this I mean those who only want to pay when they can get something out of it for themselves - whatever happened to community spirit and I still think the closure is so short sighted as investment in sports and leisure facilities has got to be an investment for the future otherwise who knows what health problems we will be creating.
Gill, says...
11:01pm Wed 18 Apr 07
I had just taken up squash at whl, if i want to carry on i will have to go to st mary's, I also went swimming with a yr 4 group who now have to walk to st mary's for their lessons. I for 1 have no objections to paying an extra 10/12 quid a yr if it meant keeping the whl open.
Andrew Weston, Calne says...
6:47am Thu 19 Apr 07
Well it seems that unless you support Athena leisure and/or another price rise in the council tax you must have an ulterior motive. I would just like to point out that not all Calne residents used the WHLC before it was closed and I am one of these. The key point people seem to be missing is this, if the centre was well enough used it would not have closed! This is simple economics. I do not wish to pay more council tax (be it only 70pence a month) for a facility I chose not to use.
martin butler, calne says...
8:58am Thu 19 Apr 07
there are plenty of things we all pay for & dont use through council tax, the people of calne that use whlc are fighting for there right to use it , andrew, what facility in calne do you use that our taxes pay for ? if you use one, someone else would not & this is how it works
Peter Crane, Chippenham says...
9:57am Thu 19 Apr 07
Councillor Dolman.
I'm aware of the councils offer to give support to John Bently school with the £25,000 offered to Athena. As this was offered at least 4 weeks ago, why didn't you raise the issue of the rate increase at that time. I've also heard that you were the councillor proposing that the council support Athena with the council grant. (which is for 2 years as opposed to the John Bentley offer)
yet you continue to attack them and those that support any proposals to save the leisure centre. It has been made clear that as a private company they would not be eligable for rate relief and that they would have to charge VAT. Where do you get your figure of a 50% price hike? Or are you scare mongering again. What ever is proposed has to be commercially acceptable to the customers of the centre and to the business.
From these pages it is difficult to understand what people like you want, you seem to be running with the hare and the hounds. I'm certain that by proposing the Athena offer you feel you can always say "I tried" and then if they fail you can always revert to "I told you so". Could this have anything to do with the elections coming up?
You really are a nasty bit of work and I hope if you decide to stand again that you fail and never enter politics again, as Calne has enough issues to deal with without the likes of you
I'm aware of the councils offer to give support to John Bently school with the £25,000 offered to Athena. As this was offered at least 4 weeks ago, why didn't you raise the issue of the rate increase at that time. I've also heard that you were the councillor proposing that the council support Athena with the council grant. (which is for 2 years as opposed to the John Bentley offer)
yet you continue to attack them and those that support any proposals to save the leisure centre. It has been made clear that as a private company they would not be eligable for rate relief and that they would have to charge VAT. Where do you get your figure of a 50% price hike? Or are you scare mongering again. What ever is proposed has to be commercially acceptable to the customers of the centre and to the business.
From these pages it is difficult to understand what people like you want, you seem to be running with the hare and the hounds. I'm certain that by proposing the Athena offer you feel you can always say "I tried" and then if they fail you can always revert to "I told you so". Could this have anything to do with the elections coming up?
You really are a nasty bit of work and I hope if you decide to stand again that you fail and never enter politics again, as Calne has enough issues to deal with without the likes of you
V Kingsley, formerly Calne says...
10:57am Thu 19 Apr 07
As a former resident and user of Calne Leisure centre, I find it extremely disheartening to discover that it has closed.
As many prople have pointed out the centre will have fallen into disrepair during its period of closure. I understand that NWDC and DC Leisure together have been stripping the building. This goes a long way to illustrate the sort of people you are dealing with. If DC Leisure and the council wanted it open and they know that the community are trying to find a solution, why are they stripping it.
If I was DC leisure I would not want this centre open even as a community project as it would impact on my plans. All communities have people like Dolman and the clown signing himself resident, unfortunatley because very few people actually bother to vote you end up with peole who have only a personal agenda as councillors.
I also understand that Cricklade centre has been saved and that NWDC have agreed slightly different terms to those offered to Calne.
Either DC Leisure are at it again or NWDC do not want Calne to remain open. I hope one day you will find out the truth something you won't get from Mr Dolman
As many prople have pointed out the centre will have fallen into disrepair during its period of closure. I understand that NWDC and DC Leisure together have been stripping the building. This goes a long way to illustrate the sort of people you are dealing with. If DC Leisure and the council wanted it open and they know that the community are trying to find a solution, why are they stripping it.
If I was DC leisure I would not want this centre open even as a community project as it would impact on my plans. All communities have people like Dolman and the clown signing himself resident, unfortunatley because very few people actually bother to vote you end up with peole who have only a personal agenda as councillors.
I also understand that Cricklade centre has been saved and that NWDC have agreed slightly different terms to those offered to Calne.
Either DC Leisure are at it again or NWDC do not want Calne to remain open. I hope one day you will find out the truth something you won't get from Mr Dolman
Angry resident, Calne says...
11:13am Thu 19 Apr 07
What is the problem with this local resident guy. If your not bothered about the centre and you don't use it then shut up. I like the point made above why wasnt Mr Dolman telling us about the money promised to the school and why wasn't he shouting about a potential rate increase then!
The centre has been allowed to fall apart probably as some long term plan put together by Bell & Burridge at the district council. This town has been stitched up by these people and thier partners D C leisure. I hope it all comes out one day and they are brought to account.
My advice if Dolman turns up on your door don't open it
The centre has been allowed to fall apart probably as some long term plan put together by Bell & Burridge at the district council. This town has been stitched up by these people and thier partners D C leisure. I hope it all comes out one day and they are brought to account.
My advice if Dolman turns up on your door don't open it
also a local resident, Calne says...
11:41am Thu 19 Apr 07
I am upset at the closure of the centre as my boys used it regularly. What is equally upsetting is that we have people like local resident spouting rubbish on this site, pretending to represent local views.
Comments, like the staff are happy working with the new company, is that a fact? because I know of 2 people who hate it and want to be back in Calne. His comment about Athena not even knowing where the tap is. Whats that about, who do you think ran the place when it was open you idiot! Maggie ran it with Mike and the others. How often do you suppose NWLL overpaid managers turned up or better still the chief executive or even Larry Bell. How green are you Mr resident do you think for one moment NWDC would ring fence any money from the sale of the site, so it could be spent in Calne. It would probably go towards offsetting some of the millions promised to the new sports providers at the remaining centres.
Your not fooling anyone my friend
Comments, like the staff are happy working with the new company, is that a fact? because I know of 2 people who hate it and want to be back in Calne. His comment about Athena not even knowing where the tap is. Whats that about, who do you think ran the place when it was open you idiot! Maggie ran it with Mike and the others. How often do you suppose NWLL overpaid managers turned up or better still the chief executive or even Larry Bell. How green are you Mr resident do you think for one moment NWDC would ring fence any money from the sale of the site, so it could be spent in Calne. It would probably go towards offsetting some of the millions promised to the new sports providers at the remaining centres.
Your not fooling anyone my friend
Ex Staff Member, Calne says...
11:52am Thu 19 Apr 07
Id just like to say a few things, when I started at WHLC 7 years ago the centre was so busy and we had twice as many staff on because of the volume of customers we had coming through the doors. All fitness classes were full, sports hall was booked up pretty much all day, at 6pm every evening there were over 30 people in the pool. This was when the centre was at its best. Then NWLL were formed and everything started to go down hill. Its easy for people on here to say if enough people used it then we wouldnt be in this situation, obviously this is true but there was enough people using it over 7 years ago but people started to get put off when basic maintenance wasnt carried out quickly enough, the centre needed money put into it for decoration, upgrade of equipment etc but this wasnt done by NWLL instead they were paying big bosses 50k+. I still feel NWDC are partly to blame for this as they were supposed to be overlooking everything NWLL were doing but NWDC didnt do anything about the situation until it was too late. The figures must have look awfully wrong years ago! Why was this not picked up on by the council? NWLL used to do deals and promotions on memberships but they wouldnt advertise it!! or they would but only with 2 days to go til the promotion finishes. Everything NWLL did was done wrong and I believe this is the reason less people used the centre and I truly believe this centre could re-open and be a big success especially with Athena as they know how to run a business and Ive spoken to them personally and they DO know what theyre doing and Im angry to hear people slagging them off before theyve even been given a chance to prove them themselves. The gym equipment is still in the building and it has not been removed, the pool is not empty but is in a bad way thanks to the council not looking after it and turning the pumps and chlorine off.a lot of stuff has been removed to go to other centres but I dont believe Athena wouldnt want everything that was in the building as most of it wasnt in great condition-especially the computers!! Can I finish by saying that just because hundreds of people arent writing on this website saying they want to save the centre doesnt mean everyone wants it shut, everyone I know wants this centre to stay open and I know customers would come flocking back! Thank you and well done to Jill Martin, Mick Davenport, Julie Lovelock, Brian Heath, Angie Easton and Elaine King for their continued support, I feel these people have done everything they can apart from personally appearing on Dragens Den!!! These people are a credit to our community. Good Luck Athena
Anon, It can be done63 says...
4:59pm Thu 19 Apr 07
Ex Staff Member wrote:As an ex-member of staff perhaps you can shed some light on what your Board has been doing for seven years and your shareholders- - the employees? You would aslo know if you looked at the accounts that the only salary ever paid to bog bosses over £50k was the the MD/CEO - of which there were three in five years I believe. Yes I agree NWLL probably didnt get it right - but thats not the staffs fault - it is your Board of Directors and the NWDC for not monitoring and mamaging the service and contract in place to protect that service. So by all means sit on your moral high ground - but remember as a member of staff and shareholder you had a say and a vote. Moralising and blame, emotions and sentiments to the "good old days" won't rescue the centre. Some positive action may. There is one simple way to save this centre - but I doubt if the people of Calne who want to save this Cebtre are of a great enough number to do it.
Id just like to say a few things, when I started at WHLC 7 years ago the centre was so busy and we had twice as many staff on because of the volume of customers we had coming through the doors. All fitness classes were full, sports hall was booked up pretty much all day, at 6pm every evening there were over 30 people in the pool. This was when the centre was at its best. Then NWLL were formed and everything started to go down hill. Its easy for people on here to say if enough people used it then we wouldnt be in this situation, obviously this is true but there was enough people using it over 7 years ago but people started to get put off when basic maintenance wasnt carried out quickly enough, the centre needed money put into it for decoration, upgrade of equipment etc but this wasnt done by NWLL instead they were paying big bosses 50k+. I still feel NWDC are partly to blame for this as they were supposed to be overlooking everything NWLL were doing but NWDC didnt do anything about the situation until it was too late. The figures must have look awfully wrong years ago! Why was this not picked up on by the council? NWLL used to do deals and promotions on memberships but they wouldnt advertise it!! or they would but only with 2 days to go til the promotion finishes. Everything NWLL did was done wrong and I believe this is the reason less people used the centre and I truly believe this centre could re-open and be a big success especially with Athena as they know how to run a business and Ive spoken to them personally and they DO know what theyre doing and Im angry to hear people slagging them off before theyve even been given a chance to prove them themselves. The gym equipment is still in the building and it has not been removed, the pool is not empty but is in a bad way thanks to the council not looking after it and turning the pumps and chlorine off.a lot of stuff has been removed to go to other centres but I dont believe Athena wouldnt want everything that was in the building as most of it wasnt in great condition-especially the computers!! Can I finish by saying that just because hundreds of people arent writing on this website saying they want to save the centre doesnt mean everyone wants it shut, everyone I know wants this centre to stay open and I know customers would come flocking back! Thank you and well done to Jill Martin, Mick Davenport, Julie Lovelock, Brian Heath, Angie Easton and Elaine King for their continued support, I feel these people have done everything they can apart from personally appearing on Dragens Den!!! These people are a credit to our community. Good Luck Athena
Ex Staff Member, Calne says...
11:38pm Thu 19 Apr 07
without going into too much detail there were people on 30k + who the company could've done without. you can ask a number of staff and they would all tell you that whatever staff below management status would suggest or say to the higher management wouldn't get listened too and people got sacked or 'pushed' out thier job if they disagreed or stood up against certain managers.im not just blaming NWLL, i think NWDC are just as much to blame as NWLL.im pretty sure i didnt say that me talking about when the centre was busy is going to save the centre!!i was just highlighting to people that the centre used to be busier and more people used it.
peter dolman, calne says...
9:02pm Mon 23 Apr 07
I fail to see why all this critisim is coming my way, just because I and others have not been shouting from the roof tops it does not mean efforts have not been made to try and save the leisure centre. I have pointed out the short comings at Athena Leisure that I am able to, their are others that I cannot. You can research them yourselves.
Peter Dolman
Calne Town Councillor
Lickhill Ward
Liberal Democrat
Peter Dolman
Calne Town Councillor
Lickhill Ward
Liberal Democrat
Cathy - Aerobics, Calne says...
10:02pm Mon 23 Apr 07
I am absolutely devastated by the closure of the White Horse Leisure Centre in Calne. I - along with many others - have attended aerobics at the centre every week for the past 20 years.
I too would like to extend my thanks to Julie Lovelock, Jill Martin, Mick Davenport, Brian Heath, Angie Easton and Elaine King for their continued support.
I too would like to extend my thanks to Julie Lovelock, Jill Martin, Mick Davenport, Brian Heath, Angie Easton and Elaine King for their continued support.
In this section
- Aty weekend for Wiltshire youngsters
- Swine flu scare at Marlborough School
- Chippenham school reveals swine flu outbreak
- Dance teacher to be sentenced over £20,000 trip fund theft
- Five heroes' bodies to pass through Wootton Bassett today
- Colour in the Chippenham's park
- Praise for Chippenham heroes
- Malmesbury fire squad on look out for recruits
- Parent power wins at Calne
- Calne's drop in success
Sponsored Links
Local Advertisers
Local Information
Enter your postcode, town or place name
local resident, Calne says...
9:00am Tue 17 Apr 07